Well well well, the CCP are at it again. It again makes me wonder, what was the point of attempting this international relay to begin with. To show China to be an international power? It’s hardly turned out that way. If it’s not massive protests, it’s Nobel-laureates dropping out to protest CCP policies. If it’s not last minute shortening of relay routes, it’s stage-managed exhibitions of the torch going around in circles on jogging tracks before invitation-only guests. The only time the torch was on display in all its glory was in North Korea, that shining beacon of modern humanity. And now, in the most majestic place on earth, the CCP still won’t allow unfettered media coverage of the event. What a joke. I hope the CCP get what they deserve.

This is interesting indeed.

Is this early display of censorship a small glimpse of what’s to come for the actual games? And what could possibly be their reason for not allowing international journalists access to the torch relay?

It is quite obvious that the Chinese officials put on their best act when the cameras are on but revert back to their natural tendencies when live feed is off.

Thank you SO much for blogging this. I look forward to reading more.

While Tibetans have no freedom in their homeland and Tibet has become virtually a prison for the Tibetans, China is so eager to take the torch to the summit of Everest. And on top of all media are so eager to cover the event. I think media should boycot covering this event at Everest.

Hang in there Tom,! You are our only hope for any reasonable, objective information from the mountain. I hear your frustration but your blog is reaching many of us who are eager for every word. Taking the torch up that mountain is an atrocity and violation to the people of Tibet, of course the Chinese want to keep it quiet.

This is the true super power China is showing to the world. Censorship everywhere, an olympic torch relay where the torch is hidden behind a crowd of security people. This situation visible on the Mount Everest media base camp is the common situation Tibetans have to face since more than 50 years in their own homeland. No freedom of speech, no freedom of religious, even no freedom to travel from one disctrict to the next. Tibet is a prison and all Tibetans are prisoners.

I think that there are two potential reasons for the Chinese authority to withhold info on the exact location of the torch on Mount Everest:

(1) The weather is unpredictable. The timing of the climb could be affected.

(2) The exact timing and lcoation of the Olympic torch climbing team become the top secret, as the protesting climbers could attempt to intercept the torch.

Unfortunately for Tomas Etzler, he could not obtain the real-time climbing info/data because of the potential threat, which was not existed before March 2008. I wonder who should shoulder the blame.

Why is everyone so surprised by China’s actions? When they are at an advantage and have the opportunity to make money, perhaps they appear more open. But when anyone threatens their government, they simply apply their beliefs via their actions. This is a Communist country. They do not live according to our principles in the U.S. of freedom of speech and religion. Any educated person should know this. Please don’t be surprised by any actions they may take.

While all 1,300,000,000 Chinese are brain-washed, all 200,000,000 American remains awake. What a joke! Why saying the majority are wrong without studying the real situation. It is what happened around the world to some Free People.

I would like to kindly remind all of CNN readers, there are more than human rights, freedom of speech do the majority of Tibetans want! If you don’t believe this statement, go to Tibet and find out yourself if you are really concerns about that. If you just want to criticize China for whatever reason, that’s OK and we all know what are the real reasons.

I’m a native Chinese living in Beijing, I can understand why you are so sick of our country and our government.

We’ve been hiding ourselves in a mystery for a long time. Yes, there isn’t a very hard press censorship in our country. From the mass media, not every voice can be heard as in your countries.

But this doesn’t mean that we fell guilty . That doesn’t mean that we have our own secret conspiracies. Remember China is a country with a population of 1.3 billion. There won’t be a recovery from any national riot. We have enough unhappy experience to prove this, so we tend to solve problems calmly. Anyway, we cherish our social harmony a lot.

As a result, you may get confused by our tension. You may guess China is a country governed by some sort of tyrant. I can tell you there is no such things.

Tibet is a very beutiful place. High sky and endless icy mountains will always attract you. It’s really the roof of the eath. And local people always welcome guests. So my friend, why not come to China, watch the Olympics, and see what is the real image of this country? Instead of believing what protesters, why not form you own idea based on your own judgement? You’ll find another China different from that reported.

I can understand the frustration, what I can’t understand is the surprise, this is a highly publicized event directly connected to what the Chinese perceive to be their communing out party. They don’t want anything to go wrong, but as opposed to wishing for the best like the rest of the free world, they simply control every variable they can (and that includes the press) to ensure the outcome they expect. The one thing you can always rely on a totalitarian state to do is exert TOTAL control - at least as much as possible in today’s digital world.

whine, whine, whine, whine,… Get a grip already, y’all. The base camp is not your city zoo and when you are invited, GO WITH THE DAMN PROGRAM, wait for the weather, capture the climb, and have fun. The whole base camp is waiting. Don’t make yourself some special a*s and stop whining.

As for the 3 of you below, get a life. When you save enough money, take a trip to Tibet, PRC, and enjoy it. Don’t insult your own intelligence.

Media should definitely do something, responding to their incredible secrecy. They can make all the Chinese media censor the stories, but they clearly know that is impossible to do with you western media, that is simply the reason not allowing you to see what is happening. Why not boycott??? I know it is not easy, but need to do something. It is not fair, World is watching, but China keep bullying the world.
Richie

Lhundup, you forget that the media is “supposed” to be unbiased, and by boycotting any sort of event for any reason would be showing bias.

It is really disheartening to read this though, as the Olympics are supposed to be a celebration, and instead, by giving the games to a country that is in NO way ready to receive, they have become a stupid political tool…

it should have been london 2008, or better yet, paris 2008!

To S.K Cheung,

Why do you think democracy is the best political system? Why we cannot let CCP to have a chance to prove that their political systems may work and is in the best interests for the Chinese people and the people in the world as a whole.

When every body said the China 1.3 billion people are brained washed by CCP, should we not also reflect ourselves that we are also being brain washed by the western media?

To me who ever control the media are controlling the opinion of the people.

They said they brought Democracy to Palestianian, Iraq and Afaghanistan, how many innocence people they have killed?
Are the people in Palestine, Iraq and Afaghanistan more happy now?

Tell me where are all these human rights groups? Why are all these people bashing on China? Go to demonstrate everyday infront of your country USA embassy.

If you cannot do it, please shut up and do not pretend you are holding the justice in your hand.

They blame china on Sudan and Dafur. What have you do to help?

They said they want to help the African but they also laid down many conditions. But the time they can do something, more people already dead.

China did not ask a single question and they build road and brought developements to all these thrid world countries? What wrong with that?

The western countries do not ashame of themselves robbing from the poor countries, why should China ashame of it self by buying oil from them?

Tell me frankly how many western countries are sincerely wanting to help the poor nations without any benefits in return?

If you nut heads have a sense of justice, ask all these countries to returns all the things they put in their museum to China. These are robbers, thieves.

Human right group, please go to demonstrate in front of every museum in the west to return all the treasures they had stolen from Asia including Middle Easts.

Please do justice, since all of you are judges.

Please tell USA to return Guam. This is real cultural genocide. The native cannot even speak their mother tongue and the only job they can do is becoming America G.I.

My Tibetan friends, do not believe the Wests. They had let you down one time and they will just let you down again. Do not become their tools. Just think, how many Tibets treasures are in their museums.
Ask them returns all the treasures they robbed from Tibet.

The West are very good at using Asian to figth against the Asian. Look at the Mioa tribe in Laos and the south Vietnamese who had supported USA during the Vietnam war. How they abandone these peoples and all these people finally are left to die.

The west never sincerely want to help any nation other than the whiteman nation.

It is better to trust Chinese than to trust the West.

If it is not because of the west, Dalai Lama, would not fled from Tibet.
They have to help Dalai lama because they feel guilty or they think Dalai is still usefull to them as a good media to constriant China.

“To me who ever control the media are controlling the opinion of the people.”

Chinese media: controlled.
Western media: independent.

A great big THANK YOU to the Olympic folks who decided to give China the opportunity to host the Olympics. Without that decision the March 10 Tibetan Uprising would have been mainly ignored as usual by most of the world. Since then the comparative high profile coverage of Tibetan protests and pro-Tibetan supporters has brought the situation to the attention of so many who otherwise couldn’t even find Tibet on a map. Also, the Chinese government gets to show us all how it operates. The denial of entry of the pro-Tibetan activists into Hong Kong says it all–if you’re not singing the Chinese part line then they won’t allow you to ’sing’ at all. Dissenting opinions are not welcome. So thanks again to the Olympics for this reality check regarding China’s totalitarian stance on human rights. Much appreciated.

To hendrik,

2008 Olympic games in London? I think British will not even hold the Olympic flames tours. They will not only met by much much larger protestors from all over the world and they mey even meet suicide bombers.

How many Iraqis they killed in Iraq.? How many Asian they poisoned with opium?How many Asian they killed with their war ship?

I would really like to see how western media going to report the demonstrations? Terrorists again?

Bull shit. Don’t be hypocrites. May be London not even dare to hold the Olympic flames tour.

To Anton,

Are you sure that western media are independent? Bull shit.
It depend on which group is controlling the media. You are so naive to believe there is a truely independent media.

These are all business and business means profit. Profit means must have news to report. Must have news to report, the news must suite the views of the boss. They create news, cooked up news.
Why CNN do not the report the news that oversea Chinese protested in their office. Why no news the Hong Kong lawyers suite CNN for insulting the Chinese?

They just want to fool those whiteman who do not have a chance to travel to Tibet or China.

Eva,

Can USA let Taliban or Hamas or members of Habollah to enter USA to celebrate July the 4th.

Don’t be a hypocrite.? What is not allowed by other country is no freedom? What is not allowed by your country is for security reason?

If USA is so free why they must have visa to enter USA. Free let every body go to USA. Another bullshit

To Eva,

Hong Kong is the most free place in the world. We even allowed Mia Farrow to enter Hong Kong as long as she promise not to create problem and she is allowed to speak.

Many country citizens can enter Hong Kong without visa, can your cuntry do it?

This Thomas Eltzler is lying, just like CNN has been doing to anything happening in China. CCTV 4, the international channel you can watch from all over the world is showing where the torch about everyday! The coverage tells exactly what they are doing each day. Thomas is trying to tell his readers that they were in dark at the base camp. What a joke. Talking about brainwash, that’s what Thomas is trying to do to his American readers.

Of course you can’t go wherever you want by yourself in the base camp, FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!! Besides, can a Chinese journalist wondering around by himself in a US navy base? Your guys call this cencorship? Get a life.

To Chinese: my oh my, you’ve been busy. Democracy is the best system because it respects the will of the majority, provides for and protects individuals rights and freedoms, and applies society’s laws in an equitable and transparent fashion. CCP doesn’t provide for those things. You should also note that Eastern bloc countries have all moved away from communism towards some form of democratic system. If communism in general is such a good idea, don’t you think more people would grow to love it, rather than loath it? The CCP system may work for Chinese people now, but that doesn’t mean a better option isn’t available.
The brainwashing references are really pointless. I don’t suggest you’re brainwashed because you support CCP; you have every right to. However, those who oppose CCP aren’t brainwashed either, for they also have every right to their point of view. That’s how a democracy works.
Afghanistan and the Taliban harbored and abetted the people behind 9/11. If terrorists flew planes into the Forbidden City, do you think China would be justified in going after the perpetrators? Of course they would be! What’s happened since is a civil war of sorts. Afghans are killing Afghans; I don’t think NATO soldiers are indiscriminately killing innocents.
As for Palestine, i do feel they should be entitled to their own state. However, extremists among them choose to target israel, who also has every right to defend herself.
As for Iraq, that was a mistake, and the invasion was based on erroneous pretences. But in case you haven’t noticed, there have been numerous anti iraq war protests. So i don’t see your point.
As for Sudan, yes China has done some good there, and it’s reaped some rewards in oil. In that way, it also has had something to gain, and compared to Western oil imperialism, it is no better, no worse. What China hasn’t done, however, is to use it’s influence in Sudan to curb the genocide in Darfar, and that is wrong.
Your message to Tibetans is laughable. Give me a moment to compose myself before I carry on. I think Tibetans have seen in March 2008 what China can do for and to them, don’t you?
In case you missed it, London 2012 is coming. I’m sure they’re touched by your concern about their potential security risks, but i think they’ll have it covered, without your help. I do agree that they probably won’t hold an international torch relay. I’m sure they can learn from history, and the Beijing 2008 torch fiasco should be lesson enough.
I agree that in the West, media is a business. So yes, journalistic integrity does have to balance the need to attract eyeballs. However, I think the Beijing torch tour is providing plenty of fodder that people want to read about. And I’d still prefer a business-driven media than a state-controlled one any day.
With regards to the torch in HK, pro-Tibet demonstrators probably wanted to be there to protest the torch. I don’t think they were going there to blow stuff up. So by refusing entry, China was thwarting freedom of speech (what can you expect, i suppose). Your comparison to Hamas/Hezbollah is completely irrelevant; are you suggesting that they would be going there to celebrate Independence Day? You’re kidding, right? Get real.
HK is a very free place, although you forget that even there, you’ve had many democracy protests. It benefits from the one country/two systems policy. To bad the rest of China is still governed by the “other” system.

To Jack: you’re of course entitled to support whatever you choose. However, the mark of a polite individual is to tolerate differing points of view.
To Nait: you didn’t just compare base camp on Everest to a US navy base, did you? You’re kidding, right? I agree that as hosts, the CCP has a responsibility for the safety of the journalists. However, on Everest, I suspect an oxygen tank would be handier than an AK47 for such purpose.

To S.K Cheung,

Hw much you know about CCP? Have you ever been to China or you
are living in in the historical dream.
At least for Asia so far, I do not see how good have the democracy done to these country. Look at Philippine, look at Indonesia, look at Thailand. What happen to the people there? They are becoming world labourer markets.

Compare with Malaysia and Singapore, though they are democracy but they have strong government and there is no total freedom too. You can label them as authoritarian government but so what , the people there are more happy.

Do not bull shit that democracy is the best. It all depends on what stage of developement your country is in.

CCP did a good job. They liberated China from the corrupted regime supported by USA. In three years the whole popluation have enought to eat. You think it is a easy job?

Yes they blunder in 60 - to 70, but they recover very fast after 1978, they created the most middle class group in the world in just less than 30 years. How can they do it if there is no political stability(even at the sacrifice of some of its population)? Who can do it? Only CCP.

You need not to worry about human right, freedom of speech and election. All these will come naturally as more and more affluent Chinese are born and when middle class group become 80% of the population. China will be more free, more tolerate and will be the friendliest nation in the world.

Chinese culture for 5,000yrs have taught the Chinese not to become robbers and thieves like the west. We know very well, if you want to have peace, you must make your neighbours happy and do not interfere with other people family business.

Only the west lack of this type of culture and always want to poke their nose into some body affair.

To CHinese: I agree that not all democracies are created equal, and some countries have done better at it than others. And a vibrant democracy does not have to come at the expense of a strong government, so long as said government does not trample on democratic principles. How many countries in the world are democratic; how many are communist. While it’s not a popularity contest, if communism was such a good thing, wouldn’t people be rushing to try it out? So where’s the international push for more communism?
So democracy is viable only if your country has reached a certain stage of development. In your view, at what stage of development does CCP China sit today? Is it not developed enough to give democracy a try?
You’re the second blogger I’ve come across who emphasizes this need of political stability. While true in principle, how stable is a system that can’t tolerate democracy, freedom of speech, and individual freedoms?
Human rights abuses are an affront to humanity, and it is only under false pretences to infer that such transgressions are of “internal” concern only.
You suggest that certain Asian democracies have become “labourers” on the world market. In that sense, CCP China seems no different. In fact, it’s ahead of the game in terms of child labour. The Southern Metropolis Daily reported on a street market in Sichaun where children, some under age 10, were “sold like cabbages” to factories in the Pearl River Delta. I would suggest that issues like this are not just of internal concern.

To S K Cheung,

How much you know about communism?

The fault is not lying on the communism, the main problem is human greed. This is the reason why communism fails.

Without communism, China will have been still invaded by foreign countries like yours.

I believe you are a Korean. You were brought up after the second world war. Do you know North Korea were better both economically and poltically during the late sisties and early 70. North Korea came to the present stage is the result of trade embargo and not because of their political ideology.

I do not know Sichuan there is such a “child” sold like cabbages, but I do know that these are happening in most of the democratic countries including a big democratic country like India.

To S K Cheung,

If you want to talk about human rights, I can tell you communism were the first one to propose human rights. They are the first one to propogate equal rights for all human beings.

This is why communism were so popular in the early fourties and up to early sixties. But unfortunately most of the countries adopted communism were poor countries. These countries cannot fight economically with the capitalist countries. They faced many embargo . This is why communism cannot work. The basic is still human nature -greed.

This story just shows the Chinese local leaders trying to manage the situations. Of course, they are not up to western standard and not to the expectation of a western journalist. It is going to a long time before any countries in Asia and Middle East to get use to the western standards, especially from low level local managers.

To say this is a top-down control by the CCP leaders is far-fetched.

This story actually indeed shows the bias or brainwashing of western news media, however you want to call it. They always report these small scuffs as evil-intended by CCP, rather as a cultural difference or as a learning process for the local media managers.

I don’t think the local Chinese media managers were trying to hide something. This is just the way they work. If Tomas Etzler doesn’t like, he can complaint. In his other reports, he eventually gets some news. As I said, it is a learning process for the Chinese, not an evil intended control suggested by some bloggers.

To Chinese: I agree greed permeates the human condition. This is why, if communism can only thrive in the absence of human greed, then it is bound to failure. Although in theory communism proposes equal rights for all, in reality CCP members have more “rights” than the average PRC citizen, and to deny a socio-political hierarchy within CCP is to deny reality. So if communism can’t work in reality, why not opt for something better?
My point about Sichuan wasn’t that such unfortunate circumstances occur only in communist states, but that such travesties are of human concern, and not only of “internal” interest to China. This is the same principle that can be applied when China claims sole jurisdiction over “internal” human rights problems.
As for my nationality, it is irrelevant. The pursuit of democracy and personal freedoms knows no racial or geographic bounds.

This story just shows the Chinese local leaders trying to manage the situations. Of course, they are not up to western standard and not to the expectation of a western journalist. It is going to take a long time before any countries in Asia and Middle East to get use to the western standards, especially for low level local managers.

To say this is a top-down control by the CCP leaders is far-fetched.

This story actually indeed shows the bias or brainwashing of western news media, however you want to call it. They always report these small scuffs as evil-intended by CCP, rather as a cultural difference or as a learning process for the local media managers.

I don’t think the local Chinese media managers were trying to hide something. This is just the way they work. If Tomas Etzler doesn’t like, he can complain. In his other reports, he eventually gets some news. As I said, it is a learning process for the Chinese, not an evil intended control suggested by some bloggers. Any time you deal with any government, it can be a slow process, especially up at a height of 6200m.

To Chen: while I agree in general that a central government cannot possibly micro-manage all local issues big and small, especially in a country the size of China, I do not find it far-fetched at all that the CCP are in total message control on the Everest ascent. This is, after all, the Olympic torch, and I would say the central government has a somewhat vested interest in this issue, wouldn’t you? Do you think a “low level local manager” is making the decision with respect to the information divulged to foreign journalists, whose presence there is specifically to report on the ascent? I find it far more plausible that every piece of information given to these journalists has been vetted and approved by the CCP. Which then must lead one to wonder why the CCP insists on this veil of secrecy. Old habits die hard, perhaps.

S.K. Cheung,

We are talking about the same half glass of water. You are viewing it as half empty and I view it as half full.

If CCP were not in total message control, who would be? Just like you go to the press conference of the State Department, the State Department will be in total message control as well. One wouldn’t have a negative feeling about the US government because of that. Whether the event is Olympic torch relay or not doesn’t make a difference. Someone has to be on the driver seat.

My point was that the news report should be more balanced or when someone analyzed the news, he should have more balanced views. In fact Tomas Etzler was not accusing the Chinese government performing censorship. He was just frustrated about the lack of information on the first two days of his reporting. He got some more information starting on the third day. It was some bloggers starting to scream CCP!

Certainly CCP has room to improve in their efficiency in general. But please remember the local media managers may not even know English, have no knowledge of western cultures , and have no knowledge on how to go a professional news release. They may need a English translator.

You are right the cultural barrier is hard to overcome. All these different cultures or habits have been there forever. I am not seeing any overnight fix coming soon.

You also need to remember the journalists are crying for information all the time. That is their profession.

Again, my point is that don’t view everything CCP as evil. CCP can have a good intention too. People just have to relax a little bit and have more balanced views. A lack of information for a couple of days may be just a bad micro-management happened at a height of 20000 feet.

Poor Tomas Etzler, my sympathy. On the flip side, Tomas got to see the beautiful views of Mt. Everest.

To Chen: perhaps my previous word-choice was not sufficiently precise. I agree that governments of all stripes engage in “message”-control so as to advance their agenda. I do not begrudge the CCP such priviliege. My point would have been better served by the phrase “information”-control, which I feel the CCP does enthusiastically engage in with more vigor and fervor than most governments. The difference is that, while a “message” may be disregarded in the face of compelling evidence, it is difficult to draw independent conclusions without “information”. I would be happy for the CCP to put forth a “message”, and let me decide for myself; but when they restrict information, individuals are hindered in making personal judgements. This encapsulates the difference between a “free” society, and the CCP’s version.
You’re correct that Mr. Etzler came upon more information after several days of complaining, although it is also noteworthy that he has made no recent entries in the past few days. I completely agree that logistical challenges must be substantial at their present location. On the other hand, the hosts also had the foresight to provide satellite-based access to the internet. So I think if the information were at hand, the means of its distribution would not be the rate-limiting step.

S.K. Cheung,

It is in the news that there has been a snowstorm on top of Mt. Everest and torch relay is delayed. I guess that must be the reason why Tomas made no entries in the past a few days. It must be tough for him to withhold the snowstorm.

To Chen: there is a difference between events and news-worthy events. The torch’s ascent to the top of the world is newsworthy, as is the information-control system that prevents unfettered access to this historic journey. A snowstorm on Everest, although no doubt eventful (especially if you’re caught in it), is hardly newsworthy. However, I’m sure you’re right if you’re suggesting that it might affect his satellite reception.

S.K. Cheung,
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying, because of the snowstorm, Tomas might not have anything newsworth to report, hence the lack of his entries.

To Chen: sorry about that, you’re right, if they’re in the midst of a snowstorm, I’m sure there isn’t much to see or say.

To Chinese:
“Why we cannot let CCP to have a chance to prove that their political systems may work “?

there was a system which was miserably failed. it was called Soviet Union.

To CBA,

Sorry. I have to say you do not sound like an educated person, but more like a brain-washed one.

Before you make your uneducated comments, you better first learn a thing or rwo about the live of Chinese people and the Tibetans who live there.

In the US, we enjoy the kind of freedom of speech, as well as free but biased press we have. But we got no right to tell others that they have to live the way we do.

NO body should be the bid dad of the world to tell everyone else how to live their lives.

To american:

A political system does not define a nation, the people do. The Russian people did not fail. The Chinese people had falls on the past 100 some years but they are enjoying their success for now and looking to a brighter future in the years to come.

It doesn’t matter you like it or not, it is called history in the making.

To American,

Frankly speaking, I met many American who had travel abroad and see Asia by themselves. They told me American can be divided into two groups. One with a global view and another group is like you very ignorance of the global view and always think that America is the best
country in the world.

Soviet Union fails because they turn to democracy and had a weak government strongly influence by the West. Serious corruptions backed up by the west were destroying Soviet Union. When Putting took over the power and he destroyed all the corrupted politician and presented to strong goverment to the Russia. They follow the CCP steps and now you can see a emerging Russia.

To all Tibets,

Do not be influenced by the west. Tibets and Hans had been living in peace for thousands of years. We can work together to bring China and Tibet to be an advance country. Why should we be inferior to the West. Who say that we cannot surpass the west?

A little sacrifice from Tibets and Hans can make us a great nations.

The West only want Asian to fight with Asian and then they can become the Judges and tell us what to do.

They only want to fossilised the Tibets and make you stay on stone age and so they can fullfilled their ego being superior to the colored people.

Any culture have to keep up with the progress of the world, if not we will become a “human zoo”. The west can bring their best camera to “shoot” on us to show to the world.

There is no cultural genocide, only changes in culture to keep up with the developement to suite the survival of prolong and continuation of our cultures.

If not we will become the natives in Australlia and Guam. These natives now cannot even speak their mother tongue.

To Chinese: you have a very “interesting” world-view. I think USSR collapsed because the people WANTED democracy, and not as a result of TURNING TO democracy. You have an awesome opinion of the power of western governments, if you think they’re responsible for Soviet corruption. Putin did centralize power in his 8 years as president; we’ll have to see how Medvedev proceeds now. But I don’t think having a strong central government means he’s copying the CCP model. I certainly hope not.
Nice rah-rah speech to Tibetans. Nothing like instilling a little fear and a doomsday scenario. But if they’d rather go it alone than to do it your way, what would you say?

To S. K Cheung,

You are like a “frog in a well”. Your world is only limited to the west. Everything the west do are good for you.

I can see that you have a good English and may be you are brought up in the West.

For me, I can listen to English, I understand Asian language. I can watch CNN, BBC and I also listen to CCTV. I also listen to Arabic news.

For you, what you can understand is the western type of democracy.
To me this is the worst system for the Asia.

To me, I also see diffierent type of democracy within the CCP.

I can see that throuh their own internal election system, they will choose the best leaders for the country. These leaders are dedicated to their country. Unlike the western democracy. They have to spend billions and billions of dollars in the election.

The worst part of it, is that the leader they had chosen is primary work for the financial groups that had sponsored them. In the end of the day, they leaders are making policies to give favour to these financial groups.

The games is practically controlled by the rich man and then in the disguise of for the people, by the people . All are just bull shit.
Please tell me any of the western leaders when they retired are not rich?

Compare to retired CCP leaders, these leaders after retirement can
only afford to have decent and humber livings.

Please open yourself to the Asia. Try to read the history of Asia and see for yourself how we suffered during early 30 to 60. How we are bullied untill people like you only can understand English and cannot even speak your mother tongue.

If you said Russia is a democratic country under Putin. Why the western media always said Russia election is undemocratic.

If Palestinian election is democratic, why the west do not repect the leaders elected by the Paletianian people the Hamas and start economic sanction on Hamas?

Do not be double standard and do not be a hypocrite youself. Ev ery system has it own good points and own weaknesses. Not that only the western democracy and western human rights are the yard of justice.

You do not want to talk about the inhuman acitivities in the West where they ill treated their own natives, black man or Asian citizens.
You close your eyes to all their police inhuman treatments on the non-white. May be intentionally not to read or listen to reports on such inhuman treatment.

But unfortunately you are still born with Asian skin just trying be to white like Michael Jakson.

This makes me wonder if the Chinese will censor poor results from their athletes as well.

To Bill,
Definitely not. Chinese like to learn from failures. We always said “failures is the mother of success.

Only western media doing censor. They never report the oversea chinese protests on CNN and BBC. They never report news on CNN apologise to the Chinese lawyers who are sueing the CNN for insulting the Chiese.

They always say they are not racists. But deep inside them are pure racist. You can see the expression. Their hatred on Chinese is coming deep from their hearts.

Yes. CNN is censoring the posts on this blog.

I saw a post which was the second post on this blog got deleted in a couple of hours after being posted. Now none of us got to read it anymore.

I believe it was a post by an Arabs who expressed hatred against the Americans.

To Chinese: if you had read my other posts, you would realize that I’ve never claimed the west to be perfect. I do, however, feel it is less imperfect than the CCP. Perhaps you can indulge me the right to my own opinion.
I’m happy you’re multilingual. I’m not sure why you instantly assume that i’m not.
Your description of CCP’s “democracy” suggests voting among party members. But where is the representation for the populace at large, which is the cornerstone of a true democracy?
I agree that some Western elections, particularly the US variety, are becoming circus acts. But i cannot speak to the financial status of retired western politicians.
I also can’t speak to why some western media criticize Putin. You’ll have to ask them, for they can speak for themselves. I also can’t speak to why the democratically elected hamas has met with western rejection. Again, I don’t speak for western governments.
You make a lot of presumptions of what I choose to see or talk about, as is your right. Perhaps you are doing the same with respect to the shortcomings of the CCP, which is also your right. I prefer the Western system to the CCP, and I don’t seek your agreement or approval. You prefer the CCP, and that’s fine by me.
As for your last statement, it does not merit a response, nor would the required response be appropriate in the context of polite discourse.

To. S.K. Cheung,

You are evasive to state the following:

“I also can’t speak to why some western media criticize Putin. You’ll have to ask them, for they can speak for themselves. I also can’t speak to why the democratically elected hamas has met with western rejection. Again, I don’t speak for western governments.”

You should have been honest and admitted that the west medias are biased based on their values and their geopolitical concerns. You should have admitted that the western governments have double standards when it comes to human right, freedom, democracy and election.

Based on these, I don’t think China would have a good relation with the West even if China has free election. India is an example. India never had a good relationship with Washington. It had a better relationship with Moscow.

To Chinese: your response to Bill is hilarious. Only Western media censor? You must be living in an alternate reality, but again, that is a right afforded by western democracies. I wonder how far I’d get trying to criticize CCP on a PRC blog.
Speaking of Olympics, I wonder what CCP would do if the IOC suspended events due to air pollution during the Games?

To Chen: I’ll be glad to stipulate to your suggestions, just as soon as you stipulate that the CCP promotes censorship, information-control, and bias among its own media mouthpieces, and that it has an atrocious human rights record while resisting democratic principles and individual freedoms. Deal?

To S.K. Cheung,

Deal!

It is known that CCP censors and controls information. It has human right issues. So what? Let me know which country doesn’t control and censor information? Let me know which country doesn’t have human right issues. US and UK have bigger human right issues in Iraqi than China has in Tibet.

Since the West has double standard anyway, the CCP will have its own standard. That standard is whatever the human right works for the Chinese. Kill and jail the riots if needed. Gulag, if needed. At least the Chinese have not subjected these rioters to water-boarding.

But it is not well admitted, at least by people like you, that western news medias also censor and control information. They also brainwash their population, particularly brainwash people like you. The western news medias are just another form of propaganda. They are more dangerous with the Xinhua news agency because they wear a “free and unbiased” mask.

I used to trust these western news medias. No more. I started to disbelieve them since Iraqi war. All of them were full of war propaganda prior to the Iraqi war, no better than Xinhua news agency. There was not a single media coming out to question the Bush administration. They were just mouthpieces of Western governments, NGOs, and all other kind bullshits. Their recent reports on this Tibet deal are full of distortions and twists. They sometime embraced out-right lies to demonize China. I am sure there are plenty of Arabs agreeing with my statements as the same statements can be applied to the western news medias’ reports regarding Israel and Arab world.

It is also not well admitted that there are bigger human right abuses in the US than a couple of hundreds of Tibetans being jailed. Last account of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay is 700+.

So don’t pointing fingers at China. Go clean up your own acts first.

Now I have done my deal. You need to stipulate your deal.

To Chen: as you have stipulated to your end, I too will stipulate that the US still has it’s own human rights shortcomings, and that the media, in using their journalistic discretion, do lend more weight to some stories than others. That, I suppose, can be construed as a form of bias to some.
I also agree that personally, on principle, it is wrong to disregard election results simply because you disapprove of the victor, such as the case with Hamas in the WEst Bank.
i also agree that all countries censor information to some degree. I don’t expect China to divulge national security information or national secrets on their homepage. However, the degree of information-control in China is of a different order of magnitude compared to the West. And without information, how does the general citizenry make informed decisions? Of course, the CCP system does not respect the opinion of her citizens anyway, and that’s another problem.
So here’s the thing. Yes, Gitmo to me is wrong. But that doesn’t condone or excuse indiscriminate jailing and killing of dissidents, whose only crime is to speak out against the CCP. And while the Tibetans rioters deserve punishment, the sentence has to be commensurate to the crime. Western democracies promote justice, not vendettas. That’s how justice works, and clearly CCP has much to learn.
The ‘brainwash” thing is idiotic, and no longer deserves further response.
I agree, and i think even CNN and other media outlets have said as much, that coverage of the run-up to the Iraqi Invasion was one-sided and inadequately critical of the situation and the Bush Administration. I would hope that such outlets have learned their lessons and will not repeat such mistakes in the future.
But again, your generalization to all media being government mouthpieces is unfounded and illegitimate. I’m going to ignore the NGO paranoia as well, since that is also goofy beyond comprehension.
If there’s one other thing we agree on, it’s probably that the Bush Administration has damaged American standing on the international stage. At least we’ll be done with him in another 8 months. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the CCP. And that truly is a shame.

To S.K. Cheung,

I am happy that you at least admit to some of the truths now. The magnitude of controlling and repression can be left to personal judgments.

I don’t agree, however, with you on two of your points.

First, China jailed about 200 people in Tibet during past 20 years. The Tibetan rioters were tried, at least, with lawyers presented. US jailed about 700 “terrorists” in Gitmo during past 5 years. These detainees have no right whatsoever to be tried, not to mention a fair trial. They have been held without any rights to be tried. That is a crime against humanity.

Secondly, John McCain and Hillary Clinton can be worse than Bush based on their hardliner positions against Iran and China. Did Hillary say she wanted to “obliterate” Iran? Did Hillary bash China on Chinese toys and food products. One can say Hillary was trying to catch eyeballs during election. No one would know how hard her position will be after being elected. Bottom line is, I am not seeing an end to the hardliner approach of Bush Administration on international affairs. The end of Bush era is just a name change. In that sense, the “free” country is not that much better than China. US has been unequivocally supportive of Israel for the past 60 years now, am I right?

To S. K Cheung,

I am harsh but I do not like people like you who do not have a bit of knowledge on Asia and try to speak for Asia.

If you are commenting on CCP and you must also look at the West. Do you use the same yardstick on measuring human right issues?

Have you ever been to China yourself or you just read from the news?

Have you ever watched China TV media, internets or news papers?

Are these media do not voice the Chinese people voices in China?

Did they not bash on the government if the government is doing something wrong?

You can go to any part of China and talk about America democracy
and human rights in public?

So why you say there is no freedom of speechin China?
Why you must insist that only the western type of freedom of speech is good for China?

CCP will welcome any good and constructive suggestion to improve themselves but not with people who have not been to China and does not understand China difficulties and use only their own yardstick to measure right and wrong, just and unjust?

To S. K Cheung,

Do not fool yourself with “Democracy” in Asia?

Personally, I do not think this is the best system for Asia.

When the country is having large population of uneducated citizens, poor people who cannot even afford to buy newspaper and cannot judge by themselves what is good for the country.

These are the most easily manuplated “Democracy”. You can use one dollar and can buy their vote.

The politicians can instigate the people or racial issue, religion issue and get popular votes.

This is what is happening now in Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan and even the well educated Taiwanese. The people in these country had always chosen the most corrupted governents because of money politics and irresponsible polticians.

I can tell you one more thing, unfortunately all these irresponsible polticians are the stooges of the West.

The people in all these countries will still pay high price for the so called “democracy” and you are saying that “It is human to let these people continuing suffer for the sake of democracy”. Are you having the right concepts on human rights.

The biggest human rights is to make all people survive. It is not the same kind of human right of some elites human rights.

I think if you are in Asia, you may become communist if you see the how the democratic goverments work in their countries.

I still said CCP did a good job and responsible to 1.3 billion population.

To Chen: I am also happy that you have conceded some of the failings of the CCP. I agree that Gitmo is wrong, and should be closed. The detainees should be tried in court, and so forth. I have no objection to your stand there. I don’t know how many Tibetans the CCP has officially arrested over the years. I do know, however, that stemming from the March riots, the first 30 prisoners were tried in late April. This was actually reported by Xinhua. All 30 were tried in ONE day, together, and all were convicted of various crimes. None of the charges included murder or manslaughter. Yet 3, I believe, were given life sentences, and the rest, lesser amounts. So my question to you, as I had posed to another blogger who has yet to answer, is this: when 30 guys are all tried in 1 day within 6 weeks of the “crime”, does that seem like “justice” to you? Does inciting a riot deserve a life sentence? Or does it serve the CCP in making a political statement?
I’m an Obama guy. I think either Democrat would be on the liberal side of the spectrum, and don’t think either are military hawks. So, depending on the outcome of the general election, I see great potential for America to refurbish her international reputation after 8 long years of Bushisms. I think the free Western world is still substantially better than China in terms of democracy.
You’re right about Israel. The US will support Israel for the next 60, and beyond.

To Chinese: don’t flatter yourself. I’ve seen and dealt with much more than this. Your approval is immaterial to me. I’m not sure how you concluded that I was trying to speak for Asia. I’m simply critical of the CCP.
Rather than taking your pop quiz, perhaps I can simply say that freedom of speech needn’t be eastern or western, but that such freedoms can be bestowed, comprehended, and utilized irrespective of racial or geographic boundaries, if only the populace were afforded such opportunity. The difference is that the WEst provides such opportunity. You seem to underestimate the capacity of people in general, and Chinese people in particular, which is ironic. Given the new-found economic prosperity of the PRC, why hasn’t the CCP done more to distribute this wealth, such that some PRC citizens are’t left behind.
If a large proportion of PRC citizens are still “uneducated”, and are therefore incapable of effectively exercising democratic freedoms, then consider this: is it possible that the CCP is intentionally maintaining economic oppression over large parts of China, thereby ensuring that the majority of her subjects are unable to break the chain of abject poverty, thus preventing most citizens from seeking or exercising democratic freedoms, hence perpetuating CCP’s position of power?
I agree that, to attain something desirable, a price has to be paid. Democracy is likely no different. I happen to think people would prefer to choose to pay such a price or not, rather than being dictated to by the CCP.
“It is human to let these people continuing suffer for the sake of democracy”- I never said that. But I’d rather let these people choose for themselves, rather than being told by you, or the CCP.
Besides, if the CCP is so confident in the virtues of its system, and proud of its record of “success”, why not let PRC citizens decide? That’ll be the day.

To S.K cheung,

You still do not understand about cultural differences and tolerate cultural differences.

You only dislike the word “Communists” and you equivalent it to dictatorship.

It is just like when the Asian see “Lotus”, they relate it to Buddha. When the Asian sees the “Cross”, they relate it to “punishing tools” where people are tied up and being whipped.

To the West, they may relate lotus to “Lotus” software and when they see the cross, they relate it to Jesus.

As Teng Sia Peng said “Black cat or white cat, as long as it can catch rats, it is a good cat”. As long as the governing system is good for the majority of population, it is a good government.

If CCP is that bad, people of China will overthrow the CCP. If you have read Chinese history, you will know that it is true.

Chinese can even accept foreigner to rule their country like the “Qing” from Manchuria for 300 years. This is because there was at least three good emperors and China had a long lasting peace.

Basically Chinese are peace loving people and CCP is also formed by the Chinese people and include the minority groups. CCP will and will not act like the west.

CCP always trying to solve international problems or the problems with their neighbours through dialogues including Japan.

If there is a conflicts, the conflicts is always short term just like the war with India or Vietnam. They had pushed so far in but they retreat back to their own boundary . They never occupied one inche of land belong to India or Vietnam.

But the west is different, they only know how to “bomb” you to stone age. In early 1900, they sent warships to colonise any land they can get resources.

I really do not see how “Human” are the west. How you can said that their values must be the universal values for all human kind.

Bullshit, once you endangered their interests, the only answer you get will be the missiles and not “human rights”.

Human rights is only for the west to state that they are morally higher than the Asian. Ireespective of whether you are having the same culture as they are or not or whether your values systems are the same as theirs or not.

To answer your last part, Why not let PRC citizens decide, I can tell you it still will be CCP.

Reversely I ask you, if CCP is elected will the west will look at China differently.

Again I can answer for you. No. They will not. Unless China must be like Japan and always stay second class to the west. They will not tolerate a Super Power from the Asia including India.

To SK Cheong,

You are either a hypocrite or you are just like the naive American.

I tell you the difference in human rights between the east and west.

The west’s human rights are like YOU.

You have on your right hand a hamburger and your left hand a bag of French Fries and your mouth biting a hot dog. You stand infront of the squatters in Jarkarta or Manila or Mumbai and shouting at the squatters ” Hey, you should not send your five years boys and your six year girls to work, you should send them to school. If you do not do this I will report to your government and I will report to the UN.”

What kind of “human rights” you are trying to do? If you have a bit of human conscience, you would have say ” Hey boys take my burger. Hey girls take my french fries, take care of yourselves while working.”

CCP will tell his citizens “Hey folks here are your rice for you and your children. Send your children to school. It is all free. If the teachers are good , just give them two eggs every year.”

This is what I call human rights. This is the eastern human rights. This is the way Chinese in China coming to their present stage.
The west did not give a single help. The CCP and the Chinese people and the minorities group make today China.

We will not be deter by a “hypocrite” human rignts activists like you.

To S.K. Cheung;

I can go on to explain to you why the trial of the 30 Tibetan rioters were fair, but feel that I don’t really need to. Since the West has double standards anyway, the fairness of the trial is up in the air. I don’t bother with an explaination.

I don’t think “the free Western world is still substantially better than China in terms of democracy”. Just comparing these 30 Tibetans who received trial with some of the 700+ Gitmo detainees whose appeal was rejected to be merely heard by the US Superior Court. I think the Chinese systems is at least x1000 time better.

I agree your statement that the US will support Israel for the next 60, and beyond. I bet the Chinese will hold on to Tibet for the next 800 years and beyond.

Obama is no better neither. Don’t forget the US had fought many wars in and around China under different administrations.

The US public’s attitude toward Iraqi and Gitmo is that a lot of people admit there are something wrong about them. But a lot of them don’t care and cannot do anything. They are small problem to the US economic and political system.

My attitude toward Tibet issue is the same. There are some problems with it. But they are small problems to China. No big deal. Overtime, it will dead out. The bigger problem is the economic growth in the near term, may some limited political reforms in the future. We will do the political reform at our pace dedicated by the Chinese people and Chinese leaders. Even after the politial reform, China will be still at odd with the West, just like India.

I probably get better thing after this message. At some points, these discussions start to go nowhere. East and West will have their own ways. The Tibetans can protest forever.

To Chinese: obviously there are cultural differences. We will simply have to disagree as to whether freedoms and human rights are universal goals or subject to cultural interpretations. You have your answer, I have mine.
Yes, in an ideal world, bad governments will be overthrown by the people. One could argue that Tianneman was a small step in this direction…and look where that got the protesters. In fact, this is exactly what happens in the West: bad governments are voted out of office. But in a world like CCP-China, a quasi-police state if there ever was one, what sounds good in theory is far more difficult to achieve in reality. Just ask the guy in Tianneman that got run over by that tank.
It always amuses me when ONE person tries to speak for 1.3 billion. If CCP had cahones, they would put their money where their mouth is, and allow all PRC citizens to speak for themselves. I wonder if that will ever happen?
It amuses me even more when a person like you tries to speak for the West. You’re not worthy. I for one would have far more respect for the CCP if it was democratically elected to power. However, note that I don’t try to speak for all Westerners, just for myself.
Your second note accurately illustrates the type of idiot that you are. You are in no position to judge me, in case that hasn’t become crystal clear in your myopic eyes by now. If you are satisfied by a reality where 5 and 6 year old children have to work rather than going to school, than you are more of a moron than I previously imagined. And let me tell you, I thought you were quite a moron even before this post.
You seem to ignore the substantial humanitarian assistance that the WEst has provided over the years, most recently in Thailand, and currently in Myanmar.
BTW, I will not be detered by idiots like you.

To Chen: how convenient that you choose not to explain the farce of a trial that was. I would love to hear your explanation…I could use a laugh.
We already agree on Gitmo. No need to keep rehashing it. Do you have any other points to make?
I also agree that imperial powers made mistakes in the past. You really get good mileage out of those historical sins.
I disagree that Obama is more of the same. Under the current balance of power in the US, critics of Gitmo do not have sufficient numbers to democratically close the place down. Hopefully, come November, that will change. Yes, it’s a hindrance of democracy, but again, it’s one I’m comfortable with.
If you choose to parallel Tibet with Gitmo, then I have to wonder what the prospects are for a change in CCP attitudes with Hu Jintao’s successor, and the guy after that, and the guy after that….

To Chen: “Chinese” didn’t seem capable of addressing this question; perhaps you can. “If a large proportion of PRC citizens are still “uneducated”, and are therefore incapable of effectively exercising democratic freedoms, then consider this: is it possible that the CCP is intentionally maintaining economic oppression over large parts of China, thereby ensuring that the majority of her subjects are unable to break the chain of abject poverty, thus preventing most citizens from seeking or exercising democratic freedoms, hence perpetuating CCP’s position of power?”

HI S.K.

I am surprised to know that you can laugh. Are you sure you get funny bones. Don’t call others as idiot. They eventually will call you the same. Go fiind something better to do rather than call people idiots here.

To Chen: you seem easily surprised. I love to laugh. I simply didn’t find your attempt at humour in the other blog to be worthy of laughter. Which is why I’m still anxiously awaiting your reply to my questions in my 2 posts above.
My other remarks weren’t directed at you. “Chinese” had been carrying on with some offensive remarks, and I felt it was time to respond in kind.